posted by meowser
OK. So now my Fats and Crats story is getting ripped to shreds on Majikthise. Apparently the owner of this site finds it deeply offensive that I would have used the phrase “disappear me” to describe what Obama, et al, want to do to fat people. And after posting what I thought was a rather classy, on-topic, non-accusatory reply, stating that I had, in fact, come to eat better, eat less, and exercise more than I used to and still had a BMI of over 35, someone predictably accused me of lying about what I ate. Her exact phrase? “You can’t reason with a junkie.”
A junkie. A JUNKIE. Someone who does not know me, has never seen me, and knows only my BMI has determined that I am not just a liar, I am an addict, a person who breaks the law, steals other people’s property to get her fix, someone who just needs…yeah, disappearing. I have to be secretly pounding donuts! I just HAVE to be! They don’t have to actually witness it with their own eyes. Apparently I am capable of telling the truth to strangers about what I weigh, but not about what I eat.
I have never, ever understood how these Internet Dickwads think. Could someone explain this to me? If I was really a liar, wouldn’t I lie about my weight, too? After all, you can’t see me. I am pseudonymous. For all you know, I am Miley Cyrus and am just posing as a fortysomething fatass as a hilarious social experiment. In blogland, I can “be” anything my imagination allows. But actually, I choose pseudonymity so I can be more honest about who I really am and what’s going on in my life, not less. Besides, anyone who knows me knows I absolutely suck at lying and hiding things. I couldn’t even lie to my own parents as a teenager. Never did it once. I’m really not kidding about that. (Aspie stuff, y’know.)
I mean, I probably should find it funny that someone can win Fat Hate Bingo 1 and 2 in a single paragraph. Like Zuzu says, can’t these people come up with any new material? “You’re just a food addict,” check. “You’re in denial,” check. “Donuts donuts Twinkies Twinkies McDonald’s,” check check check. Over and over and over and over and over again, the same shit. After all, only someone who’s really got iss-yews really gives a flying rat’s ass about the voluntary eating habits of a complete and total stranger who s/he can’t even see, let alone waste precious time and energy convincing him/herself that I can’t possibly be eating what I say I’m eating. I should be laughing myself silly about their iss-yews. Haw haw haw.
But somehow, the laughs get stuck in my throat. Why? Because people who believe this stuff have all the power in this world, and I have none. Because they assume these things about me, my career choices are limited, my ability to get health insurance or emigrate to another country or adopt a child is limited, my very freedom of movement is limited. Because this kind of shit is happening on a feminist blog, from non-trolls on a feminist blog, who actually believe that if you look like you eat donuts you must be eating them and therefore you are a bad feminist. Therefore, it’s not so frigging hilarious to me. When, I ask, will this mythos finally lose its power? When will self-identified feminists stop making it their business to rip other women to shreds simply for not being healthy looking “right”?
Can I get an AAAAAAAAAAAAAA! from the congregation?
fat fu 
December 21, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Oh ugh. Interesting how beyerstein says at the end of her post that she’s not going to put up with any hateful comments about weight or body shape, but then proceeds to do just that. If calling a fat person a junkie isn’t a hateful statement, I don’t know what is.
Of course, this is coming from the website of a woman who thinks the solution to the oppression of women in Afghanistan is to snatch them from their culture, country, and families, and just bring them here, to the ever-loving united states, where they won’t ever experience oppression again.
Uh huh.
December 21, 2007 at 4:38 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
When will self-identified feminists stop making it their business to rip other women to shreds simply for not being healthy looking “right”?
When you find out, let me know. Every fucking time something about fat goes up on a feminist blog, this happens. I’m grateful to the Bitch, PhD crew for smacking it down, but on other blogs, fat hate frequently goes unchecked. Baffling and frustrating.
I’ve been avoiding the Majikthise thread on account of Sanity Watchers. Sounds like that was a good call.
December 21, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Kactus, I’d imagine if it was an attack on any other fatass except me it would have been called out. But my uppity butt gets what it deserves, eh?
And KH, I don’t blame you at all. I’d probably have stayed away myself if not for the rubbernecking compulsion of seeing my own piece dismantled. As it is, I need to boil my brain in hot dog water and never go back there again. (Too bad I don’t have any hotdogs, what kind of fatass am I?)
December 21, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Oh, is there a “history” that I don’t know about?
Btw, I’ve really appreciated your input over at the feministe doctors and fat thread. In fact that whole thread has made me a very happy blogger. Well, that and the pills, hehe.
December 21, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Well, I just ate: a grilled chicken wrap and tater tots from sonic. I ate part of a hershey bar.
I have earned my ugly, fat self, according to this rubric.
So, am I absolved my the rigorous, sweaty 1.5 hour workout I smacked out this morning?
December 21, 2007 at 4:53 pm
This may be a little pathetic, but these days I avoid all feminist bloggers except Liss and Bitch, Ph.D. If they put up with fat hate, they are shitty feminists in my opinion.
December 21, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Thanks, Kactus! No, no history, just that post on Shakesville, but that’s probably good enough. (Man, I can’t imagine the kind of crap Liss must have to deal with every day. It must be like this times about 1000.)
Cindy: Only if you lost 45 pounds during your workout. Then it’s fine.
Second the love for Bitch, Ph.D.! I read it for the very first time this week, can you believe it? I’ve really been missing out!
December 21, 2007 at 5:14 pm
I went in to losing it mode finally and decided not to return. My hubby told me I was called all types of unpleasant names! Zuzu kicked some ass there and I was pleased because I think her disapproval actually embarrassed Majikthise.
December 21, 2007 at 5:20 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Ditto Sanity Watchers on not looking at Majikthise. I have better things to do with my brain than watch that self-congratulating masturbatory clusterfuck of fat hatred.
I mean, I’ve got a donut habit to support, and all.
December 21, 2007 at 5:30 pm
[…] Original post by Just another disenfranchised father […]
December 21, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Meowser, I went back to post the following:
“Majikthise – you said you would delete hateful comments and yet this is one of the most hateful threads I’ve seen on a so-called progressive site in quite some time. I could go to Perez Hilton for this much hate directed at women’s bodies, and there’s a reason I don’t.
Really, I think you should be ashamed of this post and the thread. You do a post to attack a piece on Meowser’s blog, she has the class to come to your thread to respond to you, and you don’t even show the respect of responding to back to her. You don’t even show the common courtesy and decency to NOT allow people call her a “junkie” on a site where you control the comments. Very disapointing that you, a person I thought of as a strong feminist, would show another woman and a fellow blogger such disrespect.”
December 21, 2007 at 5:41 pm
I posted a list of facts, but their spam filter blocked the version with links to the actual studies. (grr) That post and it’s comments are like a museum piece for fat-hatred! It’s like the douchehounds smelled blood and went into a feeding frenzy.
December 21, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I like how on a progressive site, having a supposed addiction also makes you a complete write-off as a human being. I didn’t know we turned in our rights to be treated like people if we happen to be addicts.
I suppose if there is no reasoning with a “junkie” then there’s absolutely no recovery rate for alcoholics, drug addicts, or sex addicts. Obviously the best thing that progressives can do for addicts is to treat them like subhuman dirt, certainly shame and ostracizing have done so much to help people overcome addiction in the past.
Everyone at Majikthise can kiss my alcoholic ass.
December 21, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Two things: 1) Lindsay’s in Vancouver for the holidays, so I have no idea if she’s actually seen the hateful comment in question. But I’ll alert her to it and see what she does.
2) I wouldn’t exactly call that commenter a “non-troll” in such definitive terms.
December 21, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Yeah, GH, there’s that too. I’ve known lots of people in AA and NA. Not one of them has ever said they cleaned up their act because of some random douche yelling “addict!” at them. It’s perfectly possible to hit rock bottom without anyone ever saying a word to you. (In fact, that is usually how it works.) And like I said before, even if I know for sure that someone has an eating disorder, my first response is generally not, “How dare they!”
And Rose, that was so wonderful of you to write that! Thank you!
Zuzu: You probably know that site’s denizens better than I do, so I’ll take your word for it. And thanks.
December 21, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I saw your comment, too, JoGeek, thanks! (You can conserve SW points by looking at “recent comments” on the site and just clicking on the ones you know are “safe.”)
Oh, and Tari? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
December 21, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Ok, stupid me I went over there, and now I’m ready to kill some skinny-ass motherfuckers up in here.
For real. Assholes.
December 21, 2007 at 7:17 pm
It ain’t their skinny bodies that are the problem, Kactus, it’s their malnourished brains. Which can also belong to a fat person. If only thin people were ever stupid about fat, the fat majority would assume its rightful rule and tell them to go get stuffed.
Which leads me to an operative question: Just how much control do people have over being stupid? Can we object to people who are willfully stupid, but not those who are congenitally stupid? And if so, how do we tell which is which?
December 21, 2007 at 7:22 pm
I didn’t even know about this until you told me about it, Meowser, which was weird considering that Lindsay linked to your crosspost at Shakes. We’ve only got about a dozen hits from that post, which is unusual when Lindsay links to us.
That suggests a couple of things to me. 1. There were almost certainly people commenting in that thread that didn’t even bother to read your post, which was not well-represented by the excerpt. 2. This is a subject on which lots of people feel they have nothing left to learn; they’ve made up their minds and that is that and you can’t possibly have anything to tell them they don’t already know or haven’t already dismissed out of hand as the blathering nonsense of desperate fatties.
I sincerely doubt anyone here is surprised by #2, but I felt like reiterating it nontheless, lol, and I thought #1 might be of interest, especially with regard to the certainty being expressed about What You Meant.
December 21, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Um, that was me, lol.
I don’t know why the hell I was logged into WordPress.
December 21, 2007 at 7:27 pm
So, am I absolved my the rigorous, sweaty 1.5 hour workout I smacked out this morning?
Only if you’re thin. Then you can eat all you want and not exercise and still be considered healthy.
🙄
I’m so glad fillyjonk showed me the eyeroll icon. I’m going to get a lot of use out of that.
December 21, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Just how much control do people have over being stupid? Can we object to people who are willfully stupid, but not those who are congenitally stupid? And if so, how do we tell which is which?
Meowser, you are a Christmas miracle.
Liss, I wrote a whole post about #2 but you’ve summed it up much better than I did.
December 21, 2007 at 8:08 pm
[…] Original post by fat fu […]
December 21, 2007 at 9:04 pm
I guess I understand that, because metabolism and biology are very complicated, many people would rather just oversimplify than admit that it’s over their heads.
I still haven’t found someone who can explain why, if I’m “eating more calories than I burn”, I am not getting fatter.
I also just don’t get the obsession with “figure out how many calories you need per day and eat only that much, or less than that much.” As if the human body were a calorimeter. It’s amazing that people have survived for millennia without calorie counting! Gosh! What kind of obsessive compulsive person do you have to be to do that kind of thing anyway? It’s a clear indication of the privilege present in our society that people are actually expected to do this.
December 21, 2007 at 9:47 pm
For years, liberals (including feminists) have had to restrain themselves. They saw all of the bigots enjoying themselves, but they had to just be nice. They saw others creating and savoring privilege for themselves, feeling stronger because they were “better” than others, while the poor liberals/feminists grew weak on a thin, tasteless mix of fairness and objectivity. Then, lo and behold, the haters saw the poor, suffering liberals and brought them deliverance. “You can say anything about THOSE people, because they CHOSE their size and, besides, it’s about HEALTH!” The liberal bigots are not going to give up this new state of affairs voluntarily. They have to be publicly slapped down, repeatedly shown to be the haters that they are, and given no quarter. And should this be “reviewed” by haters on any other post, let me add that I’m one of those people the bigots cannot explain — because if size really did equal calories minus activity, I’d have a BMI of 1000.
December 21, 2007 at 10:38 pm
I really don’t think it matters if it’s willfully stupid or congenitally stupid, it’s all stupidity, and that has no cure, while ignorance can be cured, at least IMHO. The thing is, they don’t want to be disabused of their misconceptions, because then they’d have no reason to feel superior to anyone and they’d be just the same as the rest of the world, and they can’t have that, ya know?
December 21, 2007 at 11:40 pm
There’s also the conflation (subconscious if not stated) of “fat person” with “Red State RedNeck”.
‘Cause RSRNs sit around and eat Doritos and Cheetos while watching NASCAR and reality shows on their oversize flatscreens.
While progessives jog, eat organic, and don’t own TVs, which of course all in aggregate makes you thin.
December 21, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I know, but it sure felt good to say it.
December 22, 2007 at 12:00 am
I’m officially done with Lindsay and ever other so-called progressive who preaches the anti-fat crap. Life is just short… and not because I’m fat!
December 22, 2007 at 12:48 am
You’re welcome, Meowser. The best thing about hyperthyroidism is that it’s completely destroyed any small ability I had before to censor myself! I am a bundle of uncontrolable manic energy all the time! This comes in handy sometimes.
What is with their bizarre obession with donuts? Do you think they have this image of us holding Satanic orgies where we all worship before The Great Evil Dount One? Do they think we sacrifice babies in exchange for more donuts? These people have serious issues and they’re beyond help.
December 22, 2007 at 1:57 am
“Because people who believe this stuff have all the power in this world, and I have none.”
Oh, Meowser, you are so right! Just how I feel. Fat prejudices and ignorance and hate are everywhere, even among people you would hope had the intelligence to know better and had compassion for people, like healthcare professionals and scientists.
December 22, 2007 at 2:04 am
Meowser, you have my AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! I’m so, so disheartened to see well-known feminist bloggers succumbing to fat hate along with everyone else. For god’s sake, to not condone the ultimately futile act of dieting has nothing to do with “punishing people who do seek to improve eating and exercise habits.” (A. Marcotte) That tack reminds me uncomfortably of the white, male, Republican nuts out there claiming that liberals are destroying Christmas.
December 22, 2007 at 2:19 am
oy. The foolishness of the world.
I was gonna be snarky…but I’m just disappointed.
December 22, 2007 at 2:36 am
Yeah, I’m not sure how saying you don’t have an interest in reading someone’s weight-loss blog is tantamount to punishing that person, or saying you hope she chokes to death on her Curves flakes. There are a million and one places you can go to get pinned with angel wings for your weight loss. Aren’t we allowed even a few safe havens from that? (In case you’re keeping score, that’s from Bingo Card number 1, upper right corner — “you’re endangering the rights of dieters!”)
Take care of yourself, Rose. I appreciate your putting your manic energy to good use, but I hope you feel better soon. As to your question, I don’t get it either, except that I suspect that carb deprivation makes some people exceedingly cranky and illogical.
You guys all rule! And Liss, thanks for the insight about the page hits. That was an eye opener for me.
December 22, 2007 at 4:33 am
Is obesity as defined by the NIH the same thing as “fat”? I find “fat” and BMI measures to be very problematic to bring into a discussion that you kicked off with a quote that referenced obesity. Everyone who is deemed by others to be “fat” is not obese. My older sister has been called “fat” and has a BMI that puts her well into “overweight,” but her actual body fat percentage is not much over 30%. Carrying a lot of weight that is muscle is good for one’s health, not bad; I think it unfair to imply that Obama is just stupidly taking BMI measurements when he made no reference to “fat” or BMI.
I do think we should not use even obesity as a proxy for the precise clinical diagnosis. Thus I would prefer to see a candidate who worries about the increase in Type 2 diabetes among minors (http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/projects/cda2.htm) rather than simply lumping everything under heading of “obesity.” But all political discourse suffers from imprecision. I wouldn’t use such strong rhetoric about it until you saw someone’s health care plan and it actually talked in terms of weight rather than health and lack thereof.
December 22, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Fair enough, PG, except that I was talking about natural outcomes rather than plans. I have no doubt that most of the candidates truly believe that “once we get everyone living healthier, the weight will just fall off.” What I’m saying is, 1) what if it doesn’t? what then? and 2) can we/do we really want to force people to “live healthier,” as opposed to simply providing more options to do so?
Also, color me unconvinced that there’s been an increase of type 2 diabetes among minors. When I was underage (1963-1981) this was never, ever tested for, in anyone. Now they look for it under every rock, even in kids with absolutely no symptoms except a spare tire. I am starting to wonder if possibly it is even being overdiagnosed, since growing children and adolescents will naturally have fluctuations in blood sugar and insulin resistance. I remember seeing a study somewhere, too, that showed that many type 2 kids were misdiagnosed and were actually type 1 — Sandy, maybe you know where to find that one? Anyway, it’s much easier to give poor inner-city kids a pill than to do things to, you know, actually feed them decently and reduce their and their families’ stress levels.
N.B. For the purposes of this and only this discussion, “fat” equals “BMI > 30,” since Obama was talking specifically about “obesity.” Under normal circumstances, though, I allow people to define themselves as “fat” or not.
December 22, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Ugh. I checked out the thread again. Apparently, all fat people are liars.
December 22, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Something tells me they are craving donuts a lot more than any of us are, Sniper. Wish I could send them all a box. Meanwhile, I think I’ll avoid that place like I would Hooters.
December 23, 2007 at 12:57 am
What I’m saying is, 1) what if it doesn’t? what then? and 2) can we/do we really want to force people to “live healthier,” as opposed to simply providing more options to do so?
Well, sure. To provide a comparison, we also can provide the option to people to become educated and some either won’t be able to do so (because of mental disabilities, just as being overweight to the point of losing mobility is obviously a physical disability) and some will choose not to do so. We can’t force people to undergo skills training or attend college. And if someone is genuinely *unable* to attain skills that will allow them to hold a job, we think, “There but for the grace of God” and provide for them through Medicare’s disability allowance.
However, people who are not testably mentally retarded but simply unwilling to learn will necessarily have lower incomes and may even be unable to obtain a job. In the U.S., we currently don’t provide for such people (unless they have custody of minor children, in which case we help them a little bit for a limited time). The negative effect on the rest of us of someone who chooses not to learn is negligible. There isn’t a set amount of money or resources that goes to them that otherwise would have gone to someone else.
In contrast, because of the pooled-risk nature of all health insurance — whether private or single-payer — someone who requires more health care IS taking out of a limited pot that means there will be less for someone else. If I can look at someone and have the same “There but for the grace of God” thought, I don’t begrudge it. I too could be in a car accident, get colon cancer, have a problem pregnancy, etc. In contrast, if the person is asking for a wheelchair because they *could* have lost weight and retained mobility, but didn’t, I don’t feel like I have something in common with that person. I start to feel grudging. I think, “Why are we paying the same amount into the system, but I’m making an effort to stay in good health and this person isn’t and gets to take more out of the system?” If we had a system where everyone just paid out of pocket for their own care, this wouldn’t be a concern, and I would have no more interest in another person’s health than I have in his income (i.e. I would wish him the best but otherwise not notice). However, out-of-pocket payment isn’t a feasible way to deal with health insurance, at least not for the need to provide against catastrophe (the aforementioned car accident, cancer, near-miscarriage).
Both my mother and my sister struggle with their weight (in a serious way, not in a “OMG I’m 15 lbs over the ‘ideal'” way), but they do try to discipline their eating even when they don’t have time to exercise. Both also have emotional issues with eating, but again, they are trying and they are keeping themselves in good health.
I don’t think personal responsibility is the whole picture today. America fails to provide everyone with the option to be educated and to be healthy. But we seem to be disagreeing on whether, once we DO provide those options, whether people have some responsibility for choosing to exercise the option. Obama doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who would say that someone who is genuinely unable to lose weight no longer should receive health care. On the other hand, someone who doesn’t even try at his health, like someone who doesn’t even try at school or at work, shouldn’t be surprised if he gets less back than people who are trying.
It sounds like you are trying and your doctors recognize that. I think all doctors should be as sensible as yours and not stupidly assume that everyone who is overweight must be chowing down on donuts. I also think doctors need to be careful not to miss the signs of a heart attack in women due to the mental bias that heart attacks are a man thing. But I don’t think either kind of bias is one that “disappears” people. It is a failure of education and real thinking on that person’s part. It’s not the equivalent of wishing someone dead.
December 23, 2007 at 1:23 am
In contrast, if the person is asking for a wheelchair because they *could* have lost weight and retained mobility, but didn’t, I don’t feel like I have something in common with that person.
I’m going to pull out this particular comment because I would like my readers who are fat and have a disability requiring an assistive device to tackle that. I’m sure those of you for whom that applies have some things to say about that that I couldn’t do justice to.
In the meantime, all I’m going to say about it is, what makes you so sure that if someone is fat and in a wheelchair, that means they ate their way into it? I would think you would have to be a pretty over-the-top binge eater for that to be the sole cause of your disability, and that an ED like that would be exceedingly rare. And even if they did, why would shame make them any healthier than, well, actual help? Again, I fail to understand the “how dare they!” reaction to someone with a life-threatening ED.
December 23, 2007 at 1:54 am
Sigh. I do not look at someone who is in a wheelchair and assume that he is there because he did not control his weight. However, someone who is that person’s cardiologist for 10 years and watches him gain weight and lose mobility due to that weight does know that. If you don’t believe there are people who ask their doctors to approve a Medicare-paid wheelchair for them because they now are out of breath when they walk short distances and find it more comfortable for their bones to sit rather than bear weight, and that this out-of-breath-ness and discomfort is due to their weight, then I would be happy to put you in touch with my father, who is a cardiologist and has had patients in this situation. Honestly, if he is getting this all wrong and you can set him straight, it would be a service to him and his patients.
December 23, 2007 at 10:26 am
On the other hand, someone who doesn’t even try at his health, like someone who doesn’t even try at school or at work, shouldn’t be surprised if he gets less back than people who are trying.
If you’re really interested in learning about size acceptance and the reasons its important, I’d suggest doing some research instead of starting off with assumptions and working hard to rationalize them.
Here’s a link:
http://www.casagordita.com/101.htm
And there are a whole bunch of resources on the right side of the page.
Reading the hateful comments on Lindsay’s blog has convinced me more than ever that many of our so-called “progressive” brethren are on the lookout for people to hate and blame. Your posts have done nothing to disabuse me of this opinion.
December 23, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Sniper,
I looked at some of the links on the page you gave. They’re not relevant to what I’m interested in, because they’re about aesthetics — someone stressing over being a size 10 versus a size 20. I’m not having a discussion about size acceptance. I’m having one about health. I don’t care how big or small someone is as long as that person doesn’t impose costs on our pooled-risk system that that person is capable of avoiding. I’m part of this problem too: I have high cholesterol that is partly genetic and due to my liver, but that I also should combat by eating a low-cholesterol diet and engaging in a lot more cardio exercise. I don’t complain that my doctor must hate or want to kill people with liver problems when she counsels me to eat better and exercise more, even though I already eat a healthier diet and get more exercise than the average American. I know that she is right and that I could be doing more than I am to improve my health.
If you’re convinced that progressives are looking for someone to hate, I’m beginning to be convinced that some of the size acceptance folks are looking for ignorance to exploit. I’m tired of hearing falsities like “doctors can’t distinguish between type 1 and type 2 diabetes.” Someone with type 1 diabetes essentially stops producing insulin and frequently will present at the emergency room with her body having started to break down ketones instead. Before the discovery of insulin, people with type 1 diabetes died at early ages, emaciated like they had come out of concentration camps. Someone with type 2 is unlikely to show up at the ER, because he has insulin but has receptors that aren’t using it efficiently. You can blood test someone to determine whether he still produces normal amounts of insulin. If he does, he’s type 2. Type 2 diabetics do not die looking like type 1s. Also, one thing that desensitizes receptors is a very high level of fat in the body. This is why high body fat (obesity in the sense that NIH uses the term) does contribute to type 2 diabetes.
Will some ignorant GPs fail to blood test someone and falsely assume that if that person is overweight, it must be type 2? Quite possibly. But that’s why doctors shouldn’t always think horses when they hear hoofbeats — sometimes it is the zebra. That’s an issue with medical training, not with the actual facts of medicine. I am totally in favor of a campaign to ensure that doctors don’t make bad assumptions — with regard to gender, to race, to size, to every other characteristic. But I find it absolutely infuriating to see size acceptance advocates parroting the talking points of the food industry that obesity has no negative health effects whatsoever.
December 23, 2007 at 7:33 pm
But I find it absolutely infuriating to see size acceptance advocates parroting the talking points of the food industry that obesity has no negative health effects whatsoever.
And I find it absolutely infuriating to see so-called progressives whining about fat people costing them money and being a drain on society. We’ve at an impasse. I’m done with you, with Majikthise, and with driving myself crazy talking to brick walls. I’m sorry we don’t have more allies, and that the power goes only one way. I won’t be sending any more money to Barak Obama, but it’s not like I’m going to start supporting marriage protection legislation and regressive taxes no matter how shitty my “fellow” progressives act. And now I’ll go waddle off and stick my face in a cake or something, you know, like fat people do.
(edited by Meowser to fix tags)
December 23, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Word, Sniper. Save some for me, I don’t mind if your face was in it.
As for you, PG, I think there’s plenty of evidence that researchers, let alone doctors, don’t know everything there is to know about diabetes and insulin resistance. I certainly don’t claim to know. And I’d like to know a lot more, because I have PCOS (and incidentally, those symptoms reared their heads when I was as young as 8 years old and nobody knew what to make of them, and have remained constant in adulthood whether I weighed 125 pounds or 210 pounds), and that knowledge would help me manage it better. And I don’t find “well, lose some weight,” or “just don’t eat carbs ever” to be very helpful prescriptions, especially since I had the same symptomatology before I was ever “obese.” Maybe someday somebody will come up with a better one, one that will put the symptomatology to bed entirely instead of just ameliorate it enough to function.
My ex-husband is a fat diabetic. For years he was assumed to be type 2. Of course he had to be type 2, he was a fatass! Except that the medications they gave him for it made him so sick he couldn’t continue to take them, and one day he passed out at work. In the emergency room, a doctor said to him, “You know, I have a hunch about something, and I’m going to run some tests.” The “tests” turned out to be an iron panel, and he turned out to have hereditary hemochromatosis which was eating his internal organs (including his pancreas) alive. He never knew his biological family having been adopted at birth and thus had no idea this disease existed in his family tree. They basically told him, at age 33, that he would be lucky to live to be 40 years old because the iron overload had already ravaged his liver, to the degree that he actually had cirrhosis despite never having been much of a drinker. (He’s now 37, and his doctors have since relaxed their “death sentence” on him somewhat, but they still don’t expect him to live a normal life span.)
I think my experiences and his certainly bear out the idea that “fat causes diabetes” or “fat causes PCOS” are blame-game ideas that ignore the complex chicken-egg relationship of weight and insulin resistance. But even if you could isolate fat as an independent cause of any disease — and you can’t, because there are always always always cofactors — what on earth do you expect us to do about it? Diet some more? Yeah, that’s worked wonderfully well for all the women I know who weigh 300 pounds or more, every single one of whom was put on a diet from the time she was old enough to hold a frigging fork. I’m sorry if you don’t like the idea that we are done bleeding from our ears trying to fit into the size 10 pants you bought for us. But done we are. Find someone else to shame-trip, please.
Oh, and P.S., the “food industry” benefits as much from the diet trip as anyone else does. From 100-calorie packs that cost twice as much as normal boxes, to binge-sized portions of things that would have little appeal to us if we weren’t thoroughly self-starved, they are making out like bandits from fat hate. And like you, they blame our greedy little stomachs for our waistlines — the CCF may give lip service to size acceptance on its Web site, but check out one of the many interviews with Rick Berman sometime and you’ll know that he’s every bit as squicked out by us as you are.
December 23, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Shockingly, Meowzer, I don’t actually eat cake because I have PCOS, and hypothyroidism, and hypoglycemia. Maybe I should get a prize. I did have home-made veggie lasagna tonight and it was excellent. I wish you were here so you could have a piece.
But thank you for your work on this blog. I really enjoy your writing and find you hilarious, insightful and about a gazillion times more patient than I could ever be.
December 24, 2007 at 1:45 am
“As for you, PG, I think there’s plenty of evidence that researchers, let alone doctors, don’t know everything there is to know about diabetes and insulin resistance.”
Sure. We don’t know everything about global warming either. Surely that doesn’t mean that no individual person should feel the need to take personal responsibility for the amount of pollution he causes, because even if there is a problem — and we’re not going to expect anyone to do anything until we know everything about it — it’s The System that’s entirely at fault. As FDR thought in looking at the Great Depression, start trying to solve the problem even if you don’t understand everything. I consider that a progressive idea. And it’s a caricature of progressivism for individuals to do nothing and wait for the government to do it all.
December 24, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Oh, my god. I just occured to me that I should eat less and exercise more. Thank you, PG! Somehow, in my 40+ years of being fat, nobody has ever thought to open my eyes to the danger. I’ll start eating less and exercising more right now, and will no doubt become thin quickly and easily. Who’s with me?!?!
Okay, now I’m really done. At least for day or two. Happy holidays to Meowzer, fat fu, and even PG.
December 26, 2007 at 7:04 am
Ugh, I’m sorry I missed all this over the holidays, Meowser. And more sorry you had to go through this ringer after having written such a great post. Those comments are a prime example the uglier strains you find in progressivism – preaching tolerance from a position of profound arrogance which is utterly contemptuous of whomever we haven’t been “trained” to be sensitive to: fatties, addicts, red staters. Preaching anti-authoritarianism while accepting without any kind of critical analysis the “authority” of the medical establishment to dictate who is “acceptable”. Using one oppression to trivialize and dismiss the reality of another.
As for PCOS/diabetes/fat. Dead on in calling this a chicken and egg confusion. PCOS should be renamed “chicken-egg” disorder. You can’t map it with anything other than a circle, or multiple circular processes feeding into each other. Fat is in that circle and has its bad effects and associations, but anyone honest won’t claim that fat is the starting point, because it’s pretty clear that fat (and particularly abdominal fat and all its associated issues) is also an effect of the disorder.
December 26, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Preaching anti-authoritarianism while accepting without any kind of critical analysis the “authority” of the medical establishment to dictate who is “acceptable”.
This is the part that totally spins my wheels when it comes to progressives and alterna-types in general. How is it that people can question the moon landing and 9/11, capitalism and the electoral system, systemic racism and globalization, water rights and peak oil – BUT everything the powers that be and “science” say about fat is gosepl truth?!
I know that humans are inconsistent creatures, but COME ON.
December 27, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Tari – these “progressives” have a bias against fat people. Therefore, they will stick to whatever “science” they can find to support their prejudices. Unfortunately, these progressives haven’t learned that science isn’t perfect and is in a rapid state of change. These people really need to stay on top of what is happening before shooting their mouths off.
Fatfu – excellent points.
December 27, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Kate Harding has an excellent post on this topic. I recommend all the fat haters here to go and read it. The comments also have some wonderful wisdom too.
Best quote?
“It’s not good enough to have convictions if you’re only fighting on behalf of the people who share them.”
December 28, 2007 at 6:53 pm
For the record, that post was by Fillyjonk, Sarah, but I agree that it’s excellent. 🙂
And seriously, since when do progressives complain about having to chip in for healthcare for people they don’t like?
December 28, 2007 at 7:21 pm
And seriously, since when do progressives complain about having to chip in for healthcare for people they don’t like?
Tell me about it. They should see all the reports I’ve transcribed about prisoners in the state pen who visit the doctor to get hand lacerations repaired after trying to punch a hole in the wall (or a cellmate’s face) with a fist. (Prisoners in the state pen get regular exams for things like colonoscopies, too. Yeah, even if they’re in for rape and murder. Fancy that.)
December 28, 2007 at 8:30 pm
And seriously, since when do progressives complain about having to chip in for healthcare for people they don’t like?
Well… to be fair, we started it by being FAT at them.
December 28, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Well… to be fair, we started it by being FAT at them.
Stop! I’m laughing so hard my sides are hurting.
December 28, 2007 at 9:20 pm
I don’t know who originated the phrase “being fat at them,” but I have to tell you, it’s getting to be a favorite of mine.
December 29, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Wow the fun and games just never end do they?
Of course we have to chip in for people that bring it on themselves as the justified and entitled love to put it, I don’t bother about it because I don’t want to become bitter and resentful, I always assumed it was bad for your health.
December 29, 2007 at 7:01 pm
If you look at the video of the fat santa song, the accompanist starts playing before the music teacher starts conducting. I’m a muisc teacher, and if you can’t give a proper tempo or pickup or even a nod of speed at your accompanist,…. I wouldn’t put much faith in her choice of repertoire…
December 30, 2007 at 12:10 am
Isn’t it completely against the ideals feminists are supposed to stand for, to tear down a fellow women over something as shallow as image? I mean, the word hypocrisy certainly springs to mind.
December 31, 2007 at 2:18 am
I don’t know who originated the phrase “being fat at them,” but I have to tell you, it’s getting to be a favorite of mine.
See, if someone had asked me, I would have said it was you. Fillyjonk, maybe?
December 31, 2007 at 3:38 am
No offense… but Majikthise’s post had a point, you were exaggerating what Obama said, and putting words in his mouth, no?
p.s: Since I think its pointless to comment abt the comment thread, I’m only referring to the actual post itself.
p.p.s: And since I didn’t agree with you, you’ll probably delete this comment right? 😉
December 31, 2007 at 3:56 am
I don’t think it was me, KH. I do get surprised sometimes when people remind me of various bons mots I’ve spouted in the past — “I said that“? Wow!” — but I think I’d have remembered that one.
December 31, 2007 at 4:51 am
I’ve frequently had the same experience as Meowser, but I’m almost 100% certain it wasn’t me.
And Kate’s about to have the experience too, because Google says it was her.
January 1, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Something tells me they are craving donuts a lot more than any of us are, Sniper. Wish I could send them all a box. Meanwhile, I think I’ll avoid that place like I would Hooters.
Sigh. Do you think your desperate need to believe thin people are hungry and miserable reflects well on the supposed joy and self-acceptance that comes via “fat acceptance”? [Snipped]
Edited by moderator (fat fu):
Marta, if you feel compelled to take cheap shots at somebody, pick someone I don’t know and like, and who doesn’t have a blog which is completely open for your comments (such as they are). Or take it to your own blog.
Also, this comment is another example – the term “fat acceptance” (always a bad compromise) strikes again. Marta, you’re conflating fat acceptance with the concept of “self-acceptance” from pop psychology. Fat acceptance is not about achieving some kind of enlightened state free of issues. It’s about stopping trying to be thin. That’s all it means.
January 1, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I think it’s a natural inclination to think thin people, who are accusing fat people of stuffing their faces with donuts, are probably obsessing about donuts (after all, if they aren’t naturally thin, they probably aren’t eating donuts anymore in order to stay thin, along with all the other “bad” foods they aren’t eating). So it’s not a “desperate need” to believe thin people are miserable and hungry, it’s from experience, since a lot of fat people have dieted to be thin (and made it for a while), therefore they know how they obsessed over what they could and couldn’t eat in order to reach that so-called “ideal of thin”, and remembering how miserable and hungry they were while doing it (been there done that myself, even though I never managed to get thin, I just managed to get to “overweight” instead of “morbidly obese”).
January 1, 2008 at 2:32 pm
vesta44, I think that’s the same sort of projection of personal physiology that’s so infuriating when it’s done to us (e.g. “You must eat 4,000 calories a day to be so fat, because that’s what it would take for me to get so fat.”)
January 1, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I didn’t say it was right, I said it was natural. Just like the assumption that all thin people are automatically healthy just because they are thin, no matter how they eat/what they eat and do they exercise or not. Just like all fat people are automatically unhealthy because all they do is sit on their fat asses and stuff their faces with donuts all day. But maybe natural isn’t the term I really needed to use, maybe I should have said it’s an assumption that is made, wrongly or rightly.
January 1, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Sigh. Do you think your desperate need to believe thin people are hungry and miserable reflects well on the supposed joy and self-acceptance that comes via “fat acceptance”?
No, I specifically think thin people (or hell, people of any weight) who have this compulsion to mention donuts out of a clear blue sky every time the subject of fat people comes up reflects the fact that I’m sick to fucking death of them doing so. And yes, that I suspect that their diets are making them unreasonably cranky. But if you don’t go on and on about donuts whenever a fat person is mentioned, I’m not talking about you. If it’s not about you, then it’s not about you.
January 1, 2008 at 4:14 pm
It might not be about me, but it certainly affects me! As a genuinely happy fat person, the consumed-with-anger-“let’s-kill-the-skinny-ass-mfers” culture really just serves to convince most people that, see, fat people really can’t be happy — fat acceptance is really just about stewing with anger for thin people.
January 1, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Ah, I just saw your comment to my post that you edited. Pardon me for misunderstanding that while comments about killing skinny women stay intact, pointing out that maintaining several blogs about a subject belies the claim to not be obsessed about that subject would be seen as horribly cruel.
January 1, 2008 at 5:10 pm
I didn’t edit your post. Fu edited it. I know we all look alike to you, but really, basic reading comp should have told you there were two of us. Not to mention told you a few other things you seem to have trouble grasping.
I felt that replying to Kactus’s post about “killing some skinny-ass motherfuckers up in there” (meaning specifically in the thread on Majikthise being discussed here, not anywhere else) was more constructive than simply deleting it, and Kactus herself had no argument with me. You, on the other hand, just seem to be spoiling for a fight with anyone who will bother with you. Which I don’t plan to anymore after this, so go find someone else to troll, please.
January 1, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Marta – I rarely moderate, and I missed that post by Kaktus, and I probably would have zapped it if I’d seen it in time. I think it was a careless emotive outburst in the heat of the moment, but it has zero place here. Neither death threats or slamming somebody for their body size – let alone both – are ok by me. But Meowser called her on it.
But in general arguing with you is just playing whack-a-mole with straw men. This thread wasn’t about skinniness or thin people, it’s about bigots, who Meowser – multiple times which you completely ignored– pointed out come in all shapes and sizes. And she was careful to smack down the one poster down who brought thinness into it.
Other than Kaktus’ outburst, it’s been you that’s made this about thin women. The rest of us are in general agreement – thin women are great.
January 1, 2008 at 6:23 pm
No offense… but Majikthise’s post had a point, you were exaggerating what Obama said, and putting words in his mouth, no?
Did you actually read my entire post, or only what was excerpted? I was using what Obama said to point out what could potentially be a slippery slope to micromanaging everyone’s “lifestyle choices” if those choices might possibly “cost the government money.”
I specifically said I don’t think Obama or any other major party candidate has any plans to mandate gastric bypass or put us all in concentration camps. But they do all seem to be under the impression that getting everyone thin is as simple as encouraging everyone to eat their veggies and take a walk, and since I know from my own experience and countless others’ experience that that simply is not true, I had to wonder just how far we as a society (not just Obama) are willing to go if “encouraging” eating-veggies-and-walking doesn’t cause two-thirds of the “obese” to become permanently “not obese.” And how this could potentially bleed over into the “not obese” having their health and “lifestyle” decisions micromanaged by the government also, and left in the dust with inadequate treatment for making “wrong” choices.
Had I to write it all over again, maybe I would have said, “wanted to disappear me, or at least my fat ass,” because that was actually what I meant, and I thought the readers on Shakesville and FatFu were smart enough to understand that. Melissa McEwan obviously got that, or she wouldn’t have put my post up to begin with, and the Shakesville commenters seem to have gotten what I meant, too. But I suppose it never occurred to me that good liberal people would read the words “disappear me” and just decide I was full of shit right then and there and not parse another single word, because I’m fat and therefore know nothing about anything. Silly me.
January 1, 2008 at 6:41 pm
fat acceptance is really just about stewing with anger for thin people.
Right. Like the civil rights movement is just about POC stewing with anger over white people. Or the gay liberation movement is just about stewing with anger over straight people. Or feminism…
Do I really need to go on? You seem to be buying into three ridiculous ideas. One, that anger is always wrong. Two, that fat people, unlike other people, don’t have the right to be angrey. Three, that fat acceptance is about something you pulled out of your ass.
Why are you here?
January 1, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Heh. “Angry”. Clearly, I was too blind with rage to proof-read.
January 10, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Since I can’t leave anything alone, I checked Majikthise. To my utter lack of shock, she hasn’t deleted the hateful comments. Pretty white girl blind to privilege – film at 11.
January 10, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Thanks for checking, Sniper.
January 17, 2008 at 7:09 pm
As to your question, I don’t get it either, except that I suspect that carb deprivation makes some people exceedingly cranky and illogical.
Haha… not me! Just the opposite.
That said, dietary habits do not equal character and I don’t care what you eat so long as you feel OK with it. I do rant about the food industry and how unhealthy some foods are (and not the ones you’d think), but that’s a whole nother issue.
January 17, 2008 at 7:22 pm
As for PCOS/diabetes/fat. Dead on in calling this a chicken and egg confusion. PCOS should be renamed “chicken-egg” disorder. You can’t map it with anything other than a circle, or multiple circular processes feeding into each other. Fat is in that circle and has its bad effects and associations, but anyone honest won’t claim that fat is the starting point, because it’s pretty clear that fat (and particularly abdominal fat and all its associated issues) is also an effect of the disorder.
I don’t have PCOS but I do have the abdominal fat and I will have the diabetes if things keep going the way they’re going. And here’s the deal. When I was eighteen I was 130-135 pounds at 5’6″ and I was eating an entire box of Hamburger Helper at one sitting, OK? Drank endless amounts of full-sugar soda, ate endless amounts of chips, ate unhealthy as hell. I burned it all off. I stayed skinny. And this was with loathing exercise, even though I went into the Army and was required to do so–I avoided it as much as I could get away with. The only real exercise I got was walking, because I had no car. Not strenuous walking, either, unless I was late for work at the hospital.
If eating so many calories makes you fat, why wasn’t I fat? Because I promise y’all, I ate LOTS of calories.
I got up to my current weight eating… get ready for it… *vegetarian.* No lie. I have to almost completely cut carbs out of my diet to lose any significant amount of weight. This is because I undoubtedly have insulin resistance, not that I have health insurance to go check. But I can eat over 2000 calories a day on almost no exercise (even less than I got in my Army days), leave the carbs out, and STILL LOSE WEIGHT.
Calorie theory is bullshit. Not the least of which reason is that all calories are not processed in the same way. You use fat to make hormones and protein to make muscles and other structures. The only calories you ever only use for energy are carbohydrates. But the same assholes who are telling us fat folks to “eat healthy” and “lose weight” are also telling us that low-carb eating is a “fad diet” and that it is “unhealthy.”
They don’t want us to lose the weight, they want us to ask “how high” when they say “jump” and to remain unhealthy and get sicker as we age. Because that’s the end result of eating “low-fat, low-calorie” like they insist we should. There’s too much money to be made in misery. It’s also useful to have a perpetual scapegoat class.
It doesn’t even necessarily matter what I decide to do at this point–I have trouble staying low-carb, it requires a lot of veggies and I’m not used to eating them, not to mention all the carby stuff I miss and the lack of social support. But it doesn’t matter. Currently I am living the effects of how I ate ten years ago. It’s going to take another ten years to see any definitive change for the better and, being 34 currently, I will then be battling the effects of age, which will exacerbate any health problems I have by then.
So… whatever.
January 17, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Sorry for the Posty McPost. I was also gonna say, obesity “cases” like mine obviously came from some kind of nutritional shortfall. It wasn’t the amount of calories I ate, it was that something else was unbalanced–the food quality, in other words, not quantity.
Given what I’ve learned about (1) the role of minerals in glucose metabolism and (2) the effect of eating lots of whole grains and soy upon one’s mineral intake, I’m suspicious that all that crap about eating more whole grains and the bit of putting soy into everything we eat are taking their toll. I find it very interesting that in the last ten years or so that the government’s been saying “eat more whole grains,” all of a sudden we have these huge numbers of diabetes cases.
Somebody’s lying, and it ain’t the fat people.
January 17, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I think there’s certainly a lot we don’t know yet about environmental estrogens, and how many could possibly be generated by foodstuffs. The study of gut flora and their influence on the endocrine system is largely in its infancy, also.
But personally I think the reasons for the “skyrocketing” diabetes rates are mainly these: 1) Ten years ago, the basic criteria for diabetes was lowered from a fasting blood sugar of 140 to a FBS of 126; 2) the “prediabetes” category was introduced to include people with FBS 100 to 120; and 3) doctors started looking for it under every rock, including in young kids who never used to be tested at all, instead of testing only people who came in with symptoms. As Paul Ernsberger said not long ago, we don’t actually have any hard data that fasting blood sugar rates have actually risen, because there is no pool of old data available for comparison. There is simply more diagnosis because people are looking for it.
I don’t think this is 100% negative — certainly your chances of experiencing the physical devastation that comes with the end stages of this illness have a better chance of being circumvented with early detection — but I think people need to be very careful about saying we’re sicker than we used to be. I’m not convinced of that at all.
January 22, 2008 at 11:18 pm
We’re not sicker, we’re just heavier. And we’re less likely to have insurance…and if we have insurance it’s less likely to be comprehensive. So we wait longer to go to the doctor and _THAT’S_ when we get sicker.
And for what it’s worth, my grandfather (who was obese his whole life) died, at home, of kidney failure at the age of 98.
This was a man who ate a healthful balanced diet, and who walked 10 miles every day all the way into his late 80’s. And yet, he was obese. And his obesity did not keep him from living almost a full century.
March 17, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Why don’t people get it? I was put on my first diet at 5 months old, cos I was such a huge fat baby. How did I get so fat? Well, I was 100% breastfed, so I guess it was natural. That diet was the first of many, and surprise, surprise, I started binge eating about the age of 6. Binge eating, for someone that doesn’t know, isn’t the pleasurable eating of a lot of food, it is the compulsion to eat a lot of food. It is horrible, absolutely horrible. I have eaten food out of a dustbin in a binge, and during the worst ones, when I was 17, my heart hammering fit to burst and my stomach in agony form the volume I had forced in it, I cryied whilst I spooned yet more in. I did not think I would survive those binges.
The binges stop if I stop dieting. Unfortunately, after so many years of deiting, eating salad can remind me of dieting, and bring on a binge (nothing as violent, but still unpleasant). I love salad. I no longer care what weight I am, I just want to be able to have a peaceful relationship with food. But because I am large, the only advice and “help” I have been offered is Lipotrim.
What happened to me was done for my good, by people who thought they were helping. Society needs to wake up and to know what damage it is doing to people by this pressure to be slim. I feel abused by what has happened to me, and when people judge me because of my weight, they are abusing me too.
I just want the abuse to stop.
July 31, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Late I know, but if you don’t education someone on their asthma then you shouldn’t be surprised if they get out of breath when they’re walking. But if they’re fat then they’ll be out of breath anyway, so who cares?
Oh, and if you don’t run the cheap blood tests to find their red blood cells are low and their b12 is seriously deficient – aka they’re ANEMIC – then don’t be surprised to find they’re pretty weak and fatigued. Oh, but it’s just that they’re fat and need WLS.
May 26, 2009 at 10:46 pm
[…] again, and then tell them that if he can do it so can they, and if they can’t, they must just be lying to themselves or eating too many cough drops or […]
June 1, 2009 at 3:26 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
‘Nuff said. Meowser has said it for us.
October 30, 2010 at 1:10 am
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